Collectivism is the hot topic in blog circles this week and while I’m sure the term has some official philosophical meaning that is very deep and stuff, I don’t care about that and instead focused on a post at Raging Monkeys that used collectivism as a springboard for talking about groups in Guild Wars 2. In the post Syl wrote that GW2 is the “next evolutionary step” because people aren’t forced into groups to see the content, and in fact the old MMOs are “primal and primative”.
While to be clear I like Syl quite a bit, I find this post to be complete balderdash and just another torrent in the current deluge of fantaticism about a game that no one has played for any length of time.
Good for the Goose is Good for the Gander.
Syl argues that “[f]irst and foremost grouping up [in old games] is a self-serving, necessary act.” I disagree with that premise — there have been plenty of times where I grouped to help someone with a task that I had no interest in myself — but more importantly I don’t see why this doesn’t also apply to GW2. When one participates in an Event, it is generally to obtain the rewards for your character and the experience of doing the Event yourself. Other people may also be around you doing the same Event, but that’s really inconsequential. You’re not there for them, you’re there for your own experience.
How is this not also a “glorified common venture, serving the mutual and temporary purpose of individuals”? How are the motivations to work as part of a group to complete an Event or quest ANY different from working as part of a group to complete a dungeon or quest in a different game? I don’t understand why, apparently, working with others to complete a 5-man dungeon is hopelessly passe, while working with others to complete an Event is people being spontaneously awesome. Both are self-serving acts. (And I don’t mean that perjoratively. That’s gaming for ya.)
As for grouping being a content requirement in previous MMOs but not GW2… well, I look forward to hearing what one lone person can do in World vs. World or a dungeon by themselves without any grouping. (Hint: Not a whole lot.)
Automation is not Intention
Guild Wars 2 in fact has automated many of the options to cooperate that exist(ed) in previous games. If two people are heading to the same mob, there is no longer the option to step aside and let the other person get it. When multiple people are doing an Event, there is no option to group up with people because your contribution is automatically tallied in the total. There is no need to coordinate for who is playing the healer, because there are no healers.
I’m not saying that this automation is bad per se (although it’s not something I personally like), but that the fact that there are fewer ways for people to intentionally cooperate does not mean that there is MORE cooperation. Syl argues against overly “engineered cooperation” and says that it’s something that is lessened in Guild Wars 2, but in fact automation is the height of engineering! Yes, no one can steal a mob before I get to it, but equally no one can yield a mob to me. There is no intention, no choice… it’s not cooperation, it’s game mechanics.
Obligations are the Root of Community
What is community in relation to games? I would argue that they are groups that form due to similar interests or goals. Perhaps your goal is to kill Hard Mode Deathwing, or perhaps it’s to hang out and chat while picking virtual flowers. It doesn’t matter. The point is that community is created by and thrives on shared activities.
In her conclusion, Syl writes that she is happy that in Guild Wars 2 she can “play without the tiring bonds of obligation”. Ah yes, obligation, that old fiend of casual gamers! But are the “bonds of obligation” not also the bonds of socialization in a community? Can you have a shared goal, even if that goal is just to hang out and chat, without any sense of obligation? I feel obligated to log on to RIFT every couple of days at least, because I know my friends there will miss me otherwise. I feel obligated to help them out with quests and dungeons, again because they’re my friends.
Obligation is a fundamental part of community and forming social bonds. Without it, we are all strangers who don’t have to give a fuck about each other.
The overall point of my post is not to pick on the mechanics of Guild Wars 2 — it suits some people, and doesn’t suit others, and that’s just fine. But I object to the Orwellian-language-like notion I see often now that removing the option to cooperate is infact cooperation. I disagree that banishing one’s obligations to fellow players will create some kind of magical utopia where people help each other just because they’re so gosh darn nice. Instead what will happen, in my opinion, is that people won’t bother rezzing to be nice (but they’ll do it out of self interest). They won’t talk to each other because they don’t have to.
Look at real life and the slow death of face-to-face communities and neighbourhoods over the last 20 years. Do you know your neighbours? Do you talk to them on a regular basis? Do you know the people in your Guild Wars 2 Event and talk to them? Perhaps the world, and your game, might be a more pleasant place if players actually felt obligated to be social and work together and not automate away our choice to interact in both positive and negative ways.
Herding Cats is the blog of Liore, known in the real world as Jessica Cook. She writes mostly about MMOs and RPGs, and believes in 
As an aside, I’m a little disappointed how often I hear current GW2 sceptics or general MMO blues affected people, accuse everyone genuinely excited for certain GW2 features a fanboy, fanatic or similar. I don’t recall ever responding in kind and dismissing anyone’s critical points as just being ‘bashing squabble’ or whining. I’d like to think I put a bit more time and information into my articles than the average GW2 fanboy currently hyping on forums or trolling more critical blogs, and I don’t feel personally responsible for that “trend” out there.
Anyway, the onus to comment is quite obviously on me and so I’m going to clarify only on few of the stronger points;
- I didn’t call players primitive, but social mechanics that are based on mere survival instincts. that is natural human behaviour and culturally speaking motivations based on mere survival are considered primal or archaic. you can read an absolute pejorative into that line, as you’ve done frequently, but I was more commenting to an evolutionary process and where to go from (or trying to). it’s quite apparent that in terms of MMO design development, things are currently on the move or at least trying to get away from more dusty concepts.
- The main differences I see between WoW and GW2 are not so much about being self-serving or not; of course cooperation is always self-serving too and as I said, incentivized. I feel GW2 does this in a way more flexible and rewarding way though and eliminates many of the negative side-effects. hence my talking of ‘extra’. it is more inclusive too where WoW was exclusive and makes grouping up easier. not just because of automation but things like lack of setup, too.
I disagree that a game with no healers requires less coordination btw. while in WoW roles give people the basic idea of their jobs, in GW2 a party will always need to determine who does what in a challenging situation. roles in WoW are already distributed in the LFG tool for example. thats the whole point of ‘roles’.
- I don’t see why GW2 players would not intentionally cooperate or why an automated grouping system removes cooperation. I never mentioned that personally and to me they’re two different things entirely. maybe that wasn’t clear. you use automation as a death sentence whereas for me, it’s merely a different (and better) approach to how cooperation can be engineered.
…And ofc you can make friends in any game, no matter the design. that really is up to the players, and like-minded people will always find another. as for obligation being required for meaningful social interaction or just having a good time with friends – I am lost on that note and resign to simply disagree. :)
Syl´s last post: Individualism vs. Collectivism. Or: Glorified MMO misconceptions
I don’t think you’re a “fangirl” (fanwoman? fanperson? overly defensive fan!), but I did think that your post had strong “fan” biases, and I’ve seen a lot of that lately. It was kind of the straw that broke the camel’s back.
You are totally right that you didn’t call any players primitive, and I apologize for misreading that bit!
Well yes, of course I am biased – the moment we have a personal opinion or expectation that’s basically a bias. I can’t have different feelings than my own. if my positive feelings and arguments equal a fan bias (as opposed to a basher bias?), then that’s probably correct.
And I do count myself in that oldschool crowd of yore :) as i said, I have defended the system plenty in the past and I’ve glorified things that today I simply view in a different light. maybe I’ve just outgrown it and my wishes and playstyle have changed, too. I think we had a good run with the old system – but it’s clearly lacking in areas I want to see improvements in. there’s no way to improve anything but to try something a little different and see where it takes you. that’s not to say that other players can’t disagree and feel oldschool was the real shit and everything should stay that way.
Syl´s last post: Individualism vs. Collectivism. Or: Glorified MMO misconceptions
I guess to me there is a slight but important difference between “the grouping in this game is the best I’ve ever experienced” (just as an example) and “the grouping is an evolutionary step in the MMO genre”. The latter is much more emphatic statement, and got my basher-blood pumping. ;)
I am really on the fence about many of the systems in place in gw2 as it seems to promote a more individualistic playstyle then most. It really never encourages you towards co-operation and working together or even forming bonds outside of your current group. I agree whole heartedly that automation does not imply intentions, how it all ends up in a sense of creating a nice long lasting community is really quite up in the air though.
I actually think many of these old and dusty styles of mmo game design are really still needed, the whole reliance on others and working together towards certain goals created a more all encompassing community feel.
j3w3l´s last post: TSW Gamescom Presentation and Raid Reveal
I know it’s a tough line, because people don’t want to stand in IF shouting for a dead Strat run for an hour like the good old days, and I can totally understand. I don’t think I’d enjoy that either, now!
But I think we’re hurtling too fast in the other direction now, for my tastes anyway.
I also found myself in disagreement with Syl’s post. I have played the GW2 beta for many hours, and came out with zero connections to any people. The only conversations I had in-game was with people I knew from the WoW or MMO community via Twitter.
In the very early betas, there was no zone chat, so there was complete silence. With each beta event, the amount of participants rose, events got bigger, and yet still I personally found there was no communication outside of a ‘thx’ if you ressed someone. If you were lucky. GW2′s grouping felt more soulless than Rift events. In Rift you were added to a public group at least and there was the chance to strike a conversation, and see their names. In dynamic events in GW2, you’re lucky if you see the names of a few people you are working with.
I strongly believe that the only social connections people will likely form in GW2 will be with their guilds. The grouping design allows you to participate in everything without forming any kind of social connections. If you don’t happen to find a good guild straight away? Good luck.
Kadomi´s last post: Review: First Shift – Legacy
I hope we’re wrong, honestly, because if the PvE in GW2 is as soulless as we suspect and the game is very popular, we’re in for a change in the MMO market that we might not like.
If the PvE turns out to encourage community somehow then I’ll have to eat some humble pie, but I’ll be happy to do it. :)
The many automated grouping systems remind me of the LFD system in WoW: remove all need to coordinate and communicate. Play together, alone. Thankfully, this isn’t the only content in GW2.
Very true! WvW in particular has a lot of potential for group interaction and strategy, and I hope it turns out that way in practice.